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This is The Digital Story Podcast #533, May 24, 2016. Today's theme is "7 Lenses for 7 Years." I'm Derrick Story.

Opening Monologue

In the Spring of 2009, I joined a handful of photographers in New York City to test a new type of camera: the Olympus PEN E-P1. It was the first mirrorless interchangeable lens body I'd ever seen, and I knew then that this camera was the beginning of something big. Now, seven years later, mirrorless photography has earned a rightful place among the most popular cameras of 2016. And to celebrate this success, I'm going to discuss seven of my favorite mirrorless lenses on today's show.

7 Lenses for 7 Years

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I knew I was going to like mirrorless cameras, but what has surprised me is how good the lenses are. Here are seven of my favorites.

  • Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO ($1,399) - With an effective focal length of 80-300mm and a maximum aperture of f/2.8, this is one of the best lenses I've ever used. It's fast, sharp, colorful, and far less weight than its DSLR counterparts.
  • Panasonic LUMIX G 20mm f/1.7 II ASPH ($297) - For a lot of photographers, this is the default optic they leave on their camera. And for good reason. This pancake prime takes up very little room, yet delivers big results... and with a maximum aperture of f/1.7. Wow.
  • Fujifilm XF 35mm f/2 R WR ($299) - I think this prime is a steal for Fujifilm owners. It's effective focal length is 53mm with a fast f/2.0 aperture. Plus it is weather resistant, has 9 aperture blades, an aperture ring, and nano lens coating. What's not to like?
  • Zeiss Touit 32mm f/1.8 Lens (Sony E-Mount) ($720) - With an effective focal length of 48mm, this incredibly sharp optic will help you see the true quality of your Sony sensor. And those Zeiss optical coatings are still the secret sauce of photography.
  • Olympus 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 EZ ($249) This is a true pancake zoom, and I have come to love it more each time I use it. I think the optical quality is very good, and combined with a fast prime, such as the Panasonic 20mm pancake, you have a lot of capability for a reasonable investment.
  • Fujinon XF 16mm F1.4 R WR ($699) - Here's an optic that provides 24mm of effective focal length at f/1.4 that's weather resistant and has 9 aperture blades and nano coating. This is a serious wide angle lens.
  • Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 25mm f/1.4 ASPH ($597) - One of the first premium lenses that I bought for my OM-D, and still one of my favorites. Aside from being the fastest optic I own at f/1.4, it's one of the sharpest with amazing contrast. Plus, I love what it can do with soft backgrounds. It's just a beautiful optic.

So, seven years ago it was the nimble camera bodies that hooked me. But the amazing catalog of lenses is what's kept me happy. And as we know, it's the optics that we end up treasuring for years.

In the News

How Drones Are Being Used to Help Stop Poaching as reported by fStoppers.

Tsavo, a region in Kenya, contains the world's largest elephant population, and thus, it is a prime target both for poachers and conservationists. Nonetheless, policing the 8,150-square-mile area is a daunting task. With some clever math and the help of drones, though, Penn State University researchers are helping to make that task much easier.

Once these areas were identified, drones could be programmed to fly mathematically efficient paths to monitor the areas. This not only allowed for more effective patrol of the areas, but it also reduced the risk to conservationists by preventing them from having to physically patrol the areas and risk confrontation with poachers. It's also far cheaper than using helicopters.

Shop Talk

Comments from members of our community posted on theTDS Facebook Page. Here's a thought from last week's Finding Your Place podcast:

Christopher wrote: "Really appreciated this episode Derrick. Your experience clearly touched on something many of us resonate with. Listening to some of your backstory was truly fascinating for me. I'm currently working in the marketing/communication arm of a healthcare system in Portland, and using that opportunity to hone my storytelling and creative skills. I've even been able to start a weekly podcast for our company. As you described, I'm not completely sold that this is the thing I want to do for the rest of my life (though the safety net and benefits of a full time job are very nice), but I enjoy coming to work and knowing that at least part of my day will be spent using and developing skills in the things I'm passionate about. Hopefully I'll be ready when the next opportunity comes along."

Thanks to everyone who contributed a comment. I so enjoy reading what you have to say.

Zeiss 50mm SLR Lens on Mirrorless for Silky Macros

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Talk about a beautiful convergence of the analog and digital worlds. For my morning photo shoot, I mounted a Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 (Contax/Yashica mount) on to an Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark II and added a Contax 13mm close-up ring in-between to photograph flowers around my studio. You can read more about it here.

A Word About Buying New Gear

If you plan on making an online purchase, please consider clicking on our Amazon Link or the B&H Photo Link first, then navigation to the item you're looking for. By doing so, you help support this podcast, and it doesn't cost you a dime. Much thanks!

Updates and Such

Coming Soon: The Apple Photos Book for Photographers

I've been working on a guide to Photos for OS X that's written for photographers who want to use this application at a high level. I cover workflow, iCloud integration, and editing... at the enthusiast level.

We're releasing the eBook version soon, then will go to print after Apple announces its updates to the app at WWDC. This is an exciting, ongoing project that I think you'll want to be a part of. And you can join me every step of the way via the signup page we've created. This is going to be fun...

And finally, be sure to visit our friends at Red River Paper for all of your inkjet supply needs.

See you next week!

More Ways to Participate

Want to share photos and talk with other members in our virtual camera club? Check out our Flickr Public Group. And from those images, I choose the TDS Member Photo of the Day.

Podcast Sponsors

Red River Paper - Keep up with the world of inkjet printing, and win free paper, by liking Red River Paper on Facebook.

ImageFramer Take your photos to the next level with ImageFramer. Visit www.apparentsoft.com today.

MacPaw Creators of CleanMyMac 3 and other great software for Apple computers. Visit www.macpaw.com today.

The Nimbleosity Report

Do you want to keep up with the best content from The Digital Story and The Nimble Photographer? Sign up for The Nimbleosity Report, and receive highlights twice-a-month in a single page newsletter. Be a part of our community!

Want to Comment on this Post?

You can share your thoughts at the TDS Facebook page, where I'll post this story for discussion.

share-flickr.jpg

Having the ability to store all of our images using the 1 TB of free disc space available in Flickr, it's only natural that we'd want to share some of those images too. You can easily mark a single shot, or a group of images, to share, regardless if they are public or private.

I often keep pictures from a portrait shoot private (Camera Roll only) in Flickr, then send the proofs to the subject for approval. Once they've indicated the shots they like, I can mark those as public for the world to enjoy.

Here's a short movie that shows you how you can be in complete control of your sharing via Flickr.

If the movie doesn't load in your browser, you can link to it here for viewing.


More Flickr Tips and Techniques

Sharing Photos with Flickr is a deep dive into this venerable online photography platform, focusing on how to best use its tools with a Mac or Windows computer. I show you how to configure Flickr to automatically backup your images, organize them, and share your favorites with friends, family, and the entire online universe. This training will show you how to best take advantage of Flickr's 1TB of free online storage and its comprehensive set of imaging tools.

Want to Comment on this Post?

You can share your thoughts at the TDS Facebook page, where I'll post this story for discussion.

Talk about a beautiful convergence of the analog and digital worlds. For my morning photo shoot, I mounted a Carl Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 (Contax/Yashica mount) on to an Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark II and added a Contax 13mm close-up ring in-between to photograph flowers around my studio.

Dancing Ladies

I wanted two things from this shoot: as shallow depth of field as possible and no tripod. I got both with this combination. The Zeiss 50mm is one of my favorite optics to adapt to the OM-Ds. I've been using a Rayqual Mount Adapter to fit my Zeiss primes on to the Olympus digital bodies. The system works great thanks to the amazing image stabilization in the OM-Ds. I set the aperture on the lens, put the mode dial in the "A" position, and start shooting. It's that easy.

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The OM-D provides the correct meter reading and image stabilization. Plus, I have the EXIF metadata for everything but the aperture setting, which I mentally note, then add later. I then load the RAW files into Capture One Pro for a little fine-tuning, then output.

Meeting Standout

The reason why I like this approach, is because I want to create images that have a painterly feel to them, and this convergence of analog and digital provides just that.

Get Your Analog On!

Stop by the for all things film, SLR, Polaroid, and rangefinder. It's a blast from the past.

One of the reasons why I continued using Aperture after Apple ceased development, was because I was fond of the plugins I had acquired for it.

As I became more familiar with Capture One Pro, however, I learned that I might not be giving up all that much after all, especially for Black & White photography. Two reasons for that: 1) The Black & White converter image adjustment, and 2) Styles presets.

Black & White Converter Tool

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The adjustment sliders for B&W conversion are very good. But the kicker is all of the presets loaded in to the application. So you can browse the different looks, pick one you like, and then fine tune from there. Here's a video on how that works.

As a finishing touch, take a look at the Film Grain tool. There are a variety of great effects there, including my favorite, Silver Rich.

Film Emulation Styles

There are also some wonderful commercially available Styles that you can download, such as Capture One Styles that load a variety of effects right in to your application.

film-styles.jpg

The nice thing about these is that they don't disrupt the RAW workflow. My previous Aperture plugins required that I converted files to TIFFs and then roundtrip them. With Styles, everything stays in RAW and in the host application.

Thanks to these features, I'm discovering that there is indeed, life after Aperture plugins.

More Capture One Pro Tips and Techniques

Improve your skills by watching Capture One Pro Essential Training now available on lynda.com. More than 5 hours of tips, tricks, and techniques. Plus many free movies using advanced techniques.

I've also created a dedicated Capture One Pro Training page on The Digital Story. You can follow all of the tips and techniques that I publish in one convenient spot.

Thinking About Making the Transition from Aperture or Lightroom? - Download my free eBook titled, Rocky Nook's Guide to Moving to Capture One Pro. I show you the steps to create a test library, then build the foundation for a smooth transition to Capture One Pro.

Want to Comment on this Post?

You can share your thoughts at the TDS Facebook page, where I'll post this story for discussion.

This is The Digital Story Podcast #532, May 17, 2016. Today's theme is "Finding Your Place." I'm Derrick Story.

Opening Monologue

When I left Southern California in 1989, I knew where I stood in the photo community. Everyone knew me at the local camera shop, I had paying gigs as a journalist, and I was comfortable in my own skin. I had grown up there. It was home. But when I relocated, nobody knew me in Northern California, and I had to invent myself all over again. And I'll never forget how hard it was to find my place. We all go through this as photographers, sometimes more than once. And that's the main topic for today's show.

Finding Your Place

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People who take pictures are different than photographers. There are many distinctions, but the one I want to focus on today is niche. Snapshooters generally don't care about what type of photographer they are: portrait, landscape, fine art, journalist, or travel. But we do. Even if we say we're a generalist, that indicates some thought has been put into this concept.

And why does it matter? Because it begins the process of connecting our artistic expression to who we are and what we care about. In my view, we're all a photographer and something else. One might be passionate about hiking, another about the care of animals, another about politics, and on and on. When we can connect our passions, then we can begin to find out place as artist. Here are a few reasons to consider this:

  • Doing What We Love - Photography is my favorite pastime, but I'm a writer also. When I was able to connect those two, I flourished.
  • Rising Above Others - When we're in sync, we perform better. As a result, we tend to separate ourselves from the competition.
  • Better Longevity - I can't wait for the next day and the day after that. I don't know how it feels to be bored. And the universe is going to have a heck of a time pulling me away from this life on earth.
  • Financial Reward - How many successful people say, "I can't believe they pay me to do this?" There's a correlation there.
  • Magnet for Others - People who are engaged in what they love tend to attract others.

The takeaway here is to pinpoint your other passion. We already know that we love photography. What are you going to combine that with to truly find your place in this world?

In the News

Canon Releases 2016 Photography Trends Study as reported by PhotographyBlog.

This survey of 1004 adult U.S. consumers has revealed a surprising degree of self-confidence among amateur photographers, with 80% of respondents claiming to have "good-to-excellent" photography skills, and 62% boasting that their snapping skills have improved in the past two to five years. Food photography appears to be one of the favorite genres, with more than half of consumers taking food photos to show off a personal creation or new recipe. More than one in four respondents admit they share photos of food to brag and to give friends and family "FOMO" (Fear Of Missing Out). The survey has also revealed that more people take photos of their pets than of themselves, even as 57% confess to taking selfies on a regular basis. Less surprisingly, the majority (80%) are capturing photos during family gatherings and holidays.

Shop Talk

Comments from members of our community posted on theTDS Facebook Page. Here's are some of the thoughts from last week's Cats and Dogs podcast:

Graeme wrote: "It's taken me time understand what I, personally, want from my photography, and that is to spend more time with the camera and close to zero with the computer (though I wasn't always that way)."

Matthew added: "Choosing Olympus mirrorless (the E-M10) is how I got hooked on listening to your podcast. In my research to switching to mirrorless to lighten the load as I wasn't taking my DSLR with me I found the Nimble Photographer webpage. It was like the website was speaking right to me and my desire to keep it light. As for the PC, I have always been on the PC platform. In the world of photography today I feel like the odd man out still using the PC platform. Most of the coverage seems to slant about all things Apple."

And finally, Bill wrote: "I chose Nikon simply because my soon-to-be wife had a Nikon film camera. I had a Kodak digital camera in the early digital days but once my kids came along I got much more serious about my photography since I now had such an interesting ( and fast moving) subject. My wife, knowing Nikon got me a D50 and from there things just took off for me - still in the Nikon Family with a D7000. So I guess you could say I chose Nikon because of love."

Thanks to everyone who contributed a comment. I so enjoy reading what you have to say.

A Word About Buying New Gear

If you plan on making an online purchase, please consider clicking on our Amazon Link or the B&H Photo Link first, then navigation to the item you're looking for. By doing so, you help support this podcast, and it doesn't cost you a dime. Much thanks!

Updates and Such

Coming Soon: The Apple Photos Book for Photographers

I've been working on a guide to Photos for OS X that's written for photographers who want to use this application at a high level. I cover workflow, iCloud integration, and editing... at the enthusiast level.

We're releasing the eBook version soon, then will go to print after Apple announces its updates to the app at WWDC. This is an exciting, ongoing project that I think you'll want to be a part of. And you can join me every step of the way via the signup page we've created. This is going to be fun...

And finally, be sure to visit our friends at Red River Paper for all of your inkjet supply needs.

See you next week!

More Ways to Participate

Want to share photos and talk with other members in our virtual camera club? Check out our Flickr Public Group. And from those images, I choose the TDS Member Photo of the Day.

Podcast Sponsors

Red River Paper - Keep up with the world of inkjet printing, and win free paper, by liking Red River Paper on Facebook.

ImageFramer Take your photos to the next level with ImageFramer. Visit www.apparentsoft.com today.

MacPaw Creators of CleanMyMac 3 and other great software for Apple computers. Visit www.macpaw.com today.

The Nimbleosity Report

Do you want to keep up with the best content from The Digital Story and The Nimble Photographer? Sign up for The Nimbleosity Report, and receive highlights twice-a-month in a single page newsletter. Be a part of our community!

Want to Comment on this Post?

You can share your thoughts at the TDS Facebook page, where I'll post this story for discussion.

IMG_1198.jpg

Honestly, I've been waiting a long time for a reflector like this. And maybe one existed, and I just didn't know about it. But now that I have the Rogue Collapsible 2-in-1 Reflector, I've added another missing piece to my portrait work.

What's the difference between the Rogue and every other collapsable reflector? It's the super soft silver side that provides a crisp contrast without being too hot. So when using it as a fill light, you get enough pop to make a difference without blowing out the highlights.

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On the other side features a traditional natural white reflector, which is always good to have for more subtle fill. The natural white reflects a neutral tone instead of the bluish tints that I've see with some cheaper models. Plus the white can also be used as a background in a pinch. That being said, I think it's the silver side that I think most photographers will be using.

The Rogue 2-in-1 expands to 32" diameter; a nice working size that isn't too big to hold by hand, yet provides ample lighting. It folds down to 11.5" in diameter, so it will easily fit in most backpacks and lighting bags. Both the included case and the reflector have hanging loops. And all the materials are high quality that you can feel.

One difference with the Rogue, as a result of these quality materials, is that it will not work as a diffuser. In order to produce the right contrast for the silver side, the fabric is coated to create the softening surface. So if you do need diffusion, I would also pack one of your thinner white collapsables.

The Rogue Collapsible 2-in-1 Reflector is available for $29.95. It's a terrific photo accessory for portrait photographers.


Nimble Photographer Logo

The Rogue Collapsible 2-in-1 Reflector has a high Nimbleosity Rating. What does that mean? You can learn about Nimbleosity and more by visiting TheNimblePhotographer.com.

A Look at EyeEm's The Roll

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The quest to tame the mobile Camera Roll may have become a bit more attainable with EyeEm's new The Roll. I've tested it on my library of 5,000 images, and I'm pleased with the results.

The Roll has a few key features, including tagging your pictures automatically, then grouping them by type. This saves you time finding the image you want. For example, if I want to see pictures of my cat, I simply go to the section on Animals, and she's there along with other critters from my iPhone.

Beyond that, however, The Roll identifies what it determines to be the best of a group of images, then makes that the key thumbnail. It also assigns a score to each picture, which is interesting, but of course to be taken with a grain of salt.

The upshot is that your Camera Roll suddenly feels a lot more accessible. And it's fun to browse the groupings such as Portraits, Your Best Photos, Food, Landscape, Beauty, Cute, and plenty more.

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It does take some time for all of this processing magic. And you'll want a solid WiFi connection while it's working. My library took about 2 hours to tame.

Once completed, however, images can be viewed as previously described and shared using standard iOS options such as Twitter, Facebook, and Dropbox. According to EyeEm, your privacy is maintained. The app itself is free. And after a few hours of use, I can't see any downside to using The Roll, that is, unless you don't like an organized library.


Nimble Photographer Logo

This product has a high Nimbleosity Rating. What does that mean? You can learn about Nimbleosity and more by visiting TheNimblePhotographer.com.

Retouch a Photo... In Flickr!

We think of sharing and viewing pictures with Flickr, but not so much about touching them up. But in reality, there's a competent set of editing tools available for both desktop and mobile users.

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Why would you consider using these? Certainly this toolbox isn't going to replace Lightroom. But I have found them handy for images that went directly from camera to Flickr, then only to discover a flaw that was bothering me. So instead of starting over, I can just open the already uploaded shot in Flickr editing tools, touch it up, then save it back to my Photostream. Here's an example of how this works.

The problem is, many photographers forget about this convenience, or don't even realize the tools are there. It's a good thing to keep in your back pocket.


Sharing Photos with Flickr is a deep dive into this venerable online photography platform, focusing on how to best use its tools with a Mac or Windows computer. I show you how to configure Flickr to automatically backup your images, organize them, and share your favorites with friends, family, and the entire online universe. This training will show you how to best take advantage of Flickr's 1TB of free online storage and its comprehensive set of imaging tools.

Want to Comment on this Post?

You can share your thoughts at the TDS Facebook page, where I'll post this story for discussion.

This is The Digital Story Podcast #531, May 10, 2016. Today's theme is "Cats and Dogs." I'm Derrick Story.

Opening Monologue

What's the first thing many photographers do when they purchase a new camera or lens? They corner the pet cat or dog for an impromptu photo session. But cats and dogs provide us with more than that. They represent choice. Either you're a cat person or a dog lover. And that plays out in many ways in the world of photography. I'll explain more on today's show.

Cats and Dogs

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I knew I was a different cat in 1985 when I turned my nose up at the company's Canon A-1 SLR in favor of my own Contax with three prime lenses. My boss thought I was crazy. "Who's going to pass on an A-1," he asked mystified. "It's a nice camera," I responded, "but I prefer my Contax."

I was a cat. And he was a dog.

And it goes on from there. I chose Macs over PCs, Aperture over Lightroom, Olympus over Sony, and now Capture One Pro. What's the big deal? Well photographers are funny about choices, and I have a few interesting ones to share with you.

  • Why Macs? - In all honesty, it started with desktop publishing and Aldus PageMaker.
  • Why Canon DSLRs over Nikon? - It was all about design and menu system.
  • Why Micro Four Thirds over other mirrorless cameras? - Lens size and selection were the driving forces here.
  • Why Aperture and Capture One over Photoshop and Lightroom? - Interface and organization features were the keys here.
  • Why revisit film when everyone else is shooting digital? - The actual shooting experience and magic are what attract me.

When I stop and think about all of this, it's amazing how important user experience is to me. And that's often what drives me to one brand over another.

In the News

Steel Wool Photographer Burns Down Historic 1920s Landmark as reported by PetaPixel.

"Back on April 9th, 2016, a fire consumed the Monroe Station in south Florida's Big Cypress National Preserve at around midnight. Firefighters responded to the scene, but they weren't able to save the building before it completely burned to the ground. Big Cypress National Preserve announced today that after police investigation, a photographer turned himself in on April 11th after being labeled by officials as a person of interest and primary suspect. The man confessed to trespassing at Monroe Station with two other photographers and climbing onto the roof in order to shoot light painting photos with the sparks from burning steel wool."

MacPaw Releases Gemini 2

Gemini 2 is the new and improved version of their duplicate finder app. Gemini 2 by MacPaw scans your whole Mac, shows you duplicates in detail and lets you remove them in a click. Plus, it's packed with new features:

  • Finds similar files (songs and pics that are almost identical)
  • Scans your iTunes and Photos and external drives
  • Highlights the differences between files
  • Notes how you select files for removal and starts doing like you
  • Lets you put back the files you've trashed if you want to

To celebrate the launch, MacPaw will provide a 50 percent off discount store-wide (the whole range of MacPaw products will be discounted) till May 17th.

Winner of the 5 Rolls of Tri-X 35mm Film

Congratulations to Fred S. Brundick who won 5 rolls of fresh Tri-X film just by sending his About that Shot. It's posted on the www.theAnalogstory.com now. You might want to check it out. Based on what Fred sent in, Tri-X is the perfect film for him.

Sharing Photos with Flickr

Sharing Photos with Flickr is a deep dive into this venerable online photography platform, focusing on how to best use its tools with a Mac or Windows computer. I show you how to configure Flickr to automatically backup your images, organize them, and share your favorites with friends, family, and the entire online universe. This training will show you how to best take advantage of Flickr's 1TB of free online storage and its comprehensive set of imaging tools.

Updates and Such

Coming Soon: The Apple Photos Book for Photographers

I've been working on a guide to Photos for OS X that's written for photographers who want to use this application at a high level. I cover workflow, iCloud integration, and editing... at the enthusiast level.

We're releasing the eBook version soon, then will go to print after Apple announces its updates to the app at WWDC. This is an exciting, ongoing project that I think you'll want to be a part of. And you can join me every step of the way via the signup page we've created. This is going to be fun...

And finally, be sure to visit our friends at Red River Paper for all of your inkjet supply needs.

See you next week!

More Ways to Participate

Want to share photos and talk with other members in our virtual camera club? Check out our Flickr Public Group. And from those images, I choose the TDS Member Photo of the Day.

Podcast Sponsors

Red River Paper - Keep up with the world of inkjet printing, and win free paper, by liking Red River Paper on Facebook.

ImageFramer Take your photos to the next level with ImageFramer. Visit www.apparentsoft.com today.

MacPaw Creators of CleanMyMac 3 and other great software for Apple computers. Visit www.macpaw.com today.

The Nimbleosity Report

Do you want to keep up with the best content from The Digital Story and The Nimble Photographer? Sign up for The Nimbleosity Report, and receive highlights twice-a-month in a single page newsletter. Be a part of our community!

Want to Comment on this Post?

You can share your thoughts at the TDS Facebook page, where I'll post this story for discussion.

One of the most flexible tools in Capture One Pro is User Styles. I think they're also off the radar for many users. That's too bad because this functionality allows photographers to save a combination of settings and apply them to images as necessary.

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You can use styles to create "your look" for images, apply specific adjustments to portraits and landscapes, and even save them as metadata boilerplates. Take a look at this short movie for an overview on how styles work.

And in addition to the styles you create, you can purchase styles to apply a variety of effects and film emulations to your photographs. Once you enable this secret weapon to your workflow, you'll have a whole new appreciation for the power of Capture One Pro.

More Capture One Pro Tips and Techniques

Improve your skills by watching Capture One Pro Essential Training now available on lynda.com. More than 5 hours of tips, tricks, and techniques. Plus many free movies using advanced techniques.

I've also created a dedicated Capture One Pro Training page on The Digital Story. You can follow all of the tips and techniques that I publish in one convenient spot.

Thinking About Making the Transition from Aperture or Lightroom? - Download my free eBook titled, Rocky Nook's Guide to Moving to Capture One Pro. I show you the steps to create a test library, then build the foundation for a smooth transition to Capture One Pro.

Want to Comment on this Post?

You can share your thoughts at the TDS Facebook page, where I'll post this story for discussion.